tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post1936441889429573083..comments2024-03-09T03:28:44.216-05:00Comments on Thoughts on Education Policy: Charter Schools: Is More Always Better?Corey Bunje Bowerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-28631528344310072602009-10-12T18:32:16.404-04:002009-10-12T18:32:16.404-04:00Anonymous: No, I don't. Please enlighten me.Anonymous: No, I don't. Please enlighten me.Corey Bunje Bowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-66214532671347799072009-10-12T17:35:41.672-04:002009-10-12T17:35:41.672-04:00The appropriate reaction to that is not "quic...The appropriate reaction to that is not "quick, build more charter schools" it is "I wonder if that will still be true if we build more charter schools." Maybe it's my research training speaking, but I fail to understand those who cheer on policies before they're proven to work.<br /><br />do you understand how silly this statement is?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-76548958995943127022009-10-07T16:34:15.184-04:002009-10-07T16:34:15.184-04:00Anonymous is right. Any time a proposed change ha...Anonymous is right. Any time a proposed change has to prove itself, the existing situation is "privileged" (to use good postmodern vocabulary).<br /><br />But perhaps that's a good thing. That is, after all, what conservatism once meant. So ironic that while most people in the education business are left of center politically, they get very conservative when it comes to things like charters or vouchers or merit pay.Roger Sweenyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12734128265493099062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-4392504053334010802009-10-07T00:13:57.054-04:002009-10-07T00:13:57.054-04:00No, it's not absurd, it's just taking your...No, it's not absurd, it's just taking your logic and applying it to the status quo. Why should the status quo get an automatic pass? (And that's not even touching the incoherence of your argument that people shouldn't support policies before those policies have been "proven to work" . . . how is any new policy ever supposed to arise under that standard?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-31255693053950344482009-10-06T23:56:15.473-04:002009-10-06T23:56:15.473-04:00The study that you are referring to did not reach ...The study that you are referring to did not reach any conclusions about why charter schools <br />succeeded. The reason that the scores are high is because these charter schools can and do expel students out of their schools if they do not perform at a certain level in terms of test scores. See "Charter schools pawn off <br />flunking students, says public school principal" <br /><br />Read more: <br />http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/education/2009/07/19/2009-07-19_charters_pawn_off_flunking_kids_ps_big_sez.html<br /><br />The reasons given for the results were anecdotal. The study did not reach any conclusions about why charter schools succeeded, but noted that many had extended school days and school years, mandatory Saturday classes, performance-based pay for teachers and a disciplinary policy that punishes small infractions and rewards courtesy.<br /><br />Also, the individual doing this study is an economist, not an <br />educator. If you want to see a study regarding charter schools that was done by a team of educators also from Stanford, see "PACE issues scathing report of charter schools". This study was paid for by the Wal-Mart Foundation who were proponents of charter schools. <br /><br />http://ed.stanford.edu/suse/news-bureau/displayRecord.php?tablename=press&id=15<br /><br />A small study that doesn't ask the question of "why" in terms of the results is in my view not a <br />valid study. It appears that test scores over a certain amount of time were gathered and used to provide the statistics necessary to support the existence of charter schools. That’s all that was done.<br /><br />Also, charter schools hire young and inexperienced teachers who don't mind working the longer hours and receiving minimum pay and benefits. They also don't mind the merit pay system where their income is based on how well their students perform on a test. See "David B. Cohen and Alex Kajitani: Test scores poor tool for teacher evaluation" <br /><br />http://www.sacbee.com/1190/story/2156879.html <br /><br />This one study does not validate anything about charter schools one <br />way or the other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-36363217464208709242009-10-06T22:06:23.767-04:002009-10-06T22:06:23.767-04:00That's absurd in too many ways to mention, but...That's absurd in too many ways to mention, but I will point out that charter schools ARE public schoolsCorey Bunje Bowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-1753314645912485372009-10-06T21:23:40.451-04:002009-10-06T21:23:40.451-04:00I fail to understand those who cheer on policies b...<i>I fail to understand those who cheer on policies before they're proven to work. If we truly want what's best for our children and our society, we should be agnostic about which policy is best at the beginning of an experiment.</i><br /><br />Right on. I fail to understand those who cheer on the public schools before they're proven to work. We need to shut down the public school experiment now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-37704943082751124692009-10-06T18:29:07.628-04:002009-10-06T18:29:07.628-04:00Chripstopher: The fact that there are some extraor...Chripstopher: The fact that there are some extraordinary charters out there doesn't prove that creating more charters will result in more extraordinary schools -- nor does it prove that creating more charters will not weaken these extraordinary schools.Corey Bunje Bowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-81498597674821956092009-10-06T18:09:08.487-04:002009-10-06T18:09:08.487-04:00Good post, but I think that the pizza, ice cream, ...Good post, but I think that the pizza, ice cream, etc., analogy is a little wayward. One of the fundamental reasons for the creation of charter schools is so that unique educational ideas can come to light; so that variety can be brought to the table. <br /><br />In other words, without charter schools, we run the risk of eating pizza and ice cream all day. <br /><br />If you need any examples, take a look at these five charter schools created in the past year:<br />1. The Teacher Equity Project Charter School<br />2. Growing Up Green Charter School<br />3. Bronx Community Charter School<br />4. Green Dot Charter School (okay, a little older)<br />5. VOICE Charter SchoolUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09172454036318596332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-57320063817073221992009-10-06T12:50:26.731-04:002009-10-06T12:50:26.731-04:00Hypothetically, if we create enough charters then ...Hypothetically, if we create enough charters then there shouldn't be a huge waiting list to get into one -- especially if we succeed in closing down the low-performing ones and replicating the best ones.Corey Bunje Bowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-16110751837376555922009-10-06T12:24:14.050-04:002009-10-06T12:24:14.050-04:00Also, do parents want to live in a system where th...Also, do parents want to live in a system where their kids future is largely determined by whether or not they win the lottery to get into the right massively over-subscribed charter? Where each parent is trying to pick a whole list of choices of which they might get #6 if they're lucky?Tom Hoffmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08577165613934129833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-56178927251053186622009-10-06T11:20:58.719-04:002009-10-06T11:20:58.719-04:00Actually, that doesn't really matter, for two ...Actually, that doesn't really matter, for two reasons:<br /><br />1.) A large percentage of charter schools right now are not blowing away other schools -- but they're not doing so terribly as to merit a shutdown. In other words, there's nothing in the charter laws that prevents the creation and replication of a ton of mediocre schools.<br /><br />2.) Closing down the worst schools has zero effect on the dilution of talent and funds that I worry about -- if there are more schools, even if some of those are subsequently closed, we still have to find more talent and funds to spread around.Corey Bunje Bowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-297065269172106972009-10-06T11:19:59.571-04:002009-10-06T11:19:59.571-04:00Gideon,
You have to remember that charter school ...Gideon,<br /><br />You have to remember that charter school authorizers are a factor in this soup as well. <br /><br />There are real concerns with the authorizers' (particularly SED) ability to keep up with a rapid expansion of charters in NYC. Without a commensurate increase in their number of horses, which is a cost the public may not be willing to stomach, they may not be able to successfully run the race right. It is very expensive to properly oversee and, if necessary, close a charter school. That's why nationwide, not enough bad charters are being closed. I think Corey is right on point with his analysis (and I'm a big charter supporter, by the way - I just don't want to see quality be lost in the madness to increaes 'market share').KitchenSinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06443918139924722070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-14860799251224926002009-10-06T09:19:06.335-04:002009-10-06T09:19:06.335-04:00Your argument might make sense except for one impo...Your argument might make sense except for one important fact: charter schools are supposed to be accountable for performance. So if a new charter school doesn't perform well after five years, its authorizer is supposed to shut it down. In this scenerio you have a dynamic system where the overall pool of schools should keep getting better as the weaker schools are closed and replaced with higher performing schools. Under the current system, most failing schools stay open year after year, and the students have no choice but to attend them.Gideonnoreply@blogger.com