tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post5831614775396035934..comments2024-03-09T03:28:44.216-05:00Comments on Thoughts on Education Policy: Sunday Commentary: Sale on Snake Oil at the BrooksStoreCorey Bunje Bowerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-59408187371967801042009-05-29T05:35:44.850-04:002009-05-29T05:35:44.850-04:00Hi,
We have just added your latest post "Thoughts...Hi,<br /><br />We have just added your latest post "Thoughts on Education Policy: Sunday Commentary: Sale on Snake Oil at the BrooksStore" to our <A HREF="http://www.petgarden.info" REL="nofollow"> Directory of Pets </A> . You can check the inclusion of the post <A HREF="http://petgarden.info/story.php?title=thoughts-on-education-policy-sunday-commentary-sale-on-snake-oil-at-the-brooksstore" REL="nofollow"> here </A> . We are delighted to invite you to submit all your future posts to the <A HREF="http://www.petgarden.info" REL="nofollow">directory</A> and get a huge base of visitors to your website.<br /><br /><br />Warm Regards<br /><br />Petgarden.info Team<br /><br />http://www.petgarden.infoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-35056365680073751632009-05-12T13:05:00.000-04:002009-05-12T13:05:00.000-04:00Corey,
This is a fantastic analysis of misreading...Corey,<br /><br />This is a fantastic analysis of misreading Brooks' style or intentions. I enjoy Brooks quite a bit, though I take his comments for what they are worth in 650 words. Hopefully, he generates some discussion, and more Geoffery Canada's rise to the challenge.<br /><br />Granted, the potential problem is the myopic critics of public education who do as you say, and Brooks implies, and simply conclude that all schools who are successful just aren't trying hard enough.<br /><br />Though they would do that with or without Brooks. I still like that Brooks shines a spotlight, and then in discussion, society can work toward taking that discussion to appropriate depth.<br /><br />Again, great analysismmazenkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06602797515366983639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-30051621336491206252009-05-12T11:05:00.000-04:002009-05-12T11:05:00.000-04:00Brooks says this:
Reformers, on the other hand, ...Brooks says this: <br /><br /><I>Reformers, on the other hand, have argued that school-based approaches can produce big results. The Harlem Children’s Zone results suggest the reformers are right. The Promise Academy does provide health and psychological services, but it helps kids who aren’t even involved in the other programs the organization offers.</I>By my reading, that's a pretty accurate, not "disingenuous," representation of what the Fryer/Dobbie study says on that point.Stuart Buckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05731724396708879386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-24447245572949862792009-05-12T10:16:00.000-04:002009-05-12T10:16:00.000-04:00He doesn't have to provide every single nuance, ju...He doesn't have to provide every single nuance, just avoid overstating his position. Besides, even if it was school and not the neighborhood, implying that the "no excuses" strategy of the school is the sole reason for its success is preposterous. By my calculation, the school spends an extra 5K per student above and beyond district funding, the average class size last year in 8th grade was 18 students, they have an 11 month school year and extended day, they provide extensive after-school tutoring that I'd guess (but I'm not sure) is above and beyond that extra 5K, they have extra support staff to pull kids out for one-on-one help, they provide higher-quality breakfast and lunch than do most schools, and the list goes on.<br /><br />And Brooks is going to suggest that the reason for the school's success, and what should be replicated, is the attitude of the teachers there? On what grounds? That wasn't even part of the Dobbie/Fryer study. It's bad enough that he's discounting neighborhood effects (and, by the way, the results of the third graders, many of whom went through the baby college and pre-school programs, are more impressive than those of the eighth graders), but it's unacceptable that he could interpret the results to mean that all we need is school personnel who don't make excuses to close the achievement gap.Corey Bunje Bowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-27062951208482667662009-05-12T09:01:00.000-04:002009-05-12T09:01:00.000-04:00I'm not sure I like that analogy for some reason ....I'm not sure I like that analogy for some reason . . . . :)<br /><br /><I>The researchers made sure to do this -- in italics, before presenting their results -- Brooks did not.</I>True, but again, given the later discussion on pages 21-22, I don't see how Brooks is guilty of being "disingenuous" or selling "snake oil." This certainly wouldn't be the first time that an op-ed columnist with 650 words to play with discussed a new study without mentioning every single nuance. (And are you really sure you want to accuse Fryer of providing Brooks with the snake oil? Fryer emailed Brooks, remember, with high praise about the life-changing findings here.)Stuart Buckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05731724396708879386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-84428825326433759752009-05-12T02:35:00.000-04:002009-05-12T02:35:00.000-04:00That's certainly how Paul Tough describes it in hi...That's certainly how Paul Tough describes it in his book. Which is one reason I find it odd that David Brooks is citing the school's success on state tests as proof that schools can do it on their own as long as they refrain from making excuses.Corey Bunje Bowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-1436178292463699702009-05-12T00:14:00.000-04:002009-05-12T00:14:00.000-04:00I thought that the whole idea behind the Harlem Ch...I thought that the whole idea behind the Harlem Children's Zone was that schools alone weren't enough...RDThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08566356038836885187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-65253148386738029052009-05-11T22:45:00.000-04:002009-05-11T22:45:00.000-04:00bradley: Yes, it makes sense that a more no-nonsen...bradley: Yes, it makes sense that a more no-nonsense approach would work better. What I object to is Brooks deciding that this is the only reason for the success of Promise Academy when there are a million other things that are different about the school.<br /><br />Stuart: Yes, the authors are guessing that it was the school that caused most of the positive results -- but the responsible thing to do is say that you can't be sure about this. The researchers made sure to do this -- in italics, before presenting their results -- Brooks did not.<br /><br />Imagine that you had been accused of murder and an analysis was conducted of the crime, and the results were written up. The authors write that some limited evidence indicates that you might have been the one who committed it, but they can't be sure. And when the newspaper reports on these results it simply writes "Stuart Buck is guilty." Is that an acceptable shorthand?Corey Bunje Bowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-7049294649497993302009-05-11T22:18:00.000-04:002009-05-11T22:18:00.000-04:00To claim that positive results that the school ach...<I>To claim that positive results that the school achieves are proof that school reform is sufficient independent of societal reform is, unacceptably sloppy if not disingenuous. Brooks apparently missed the sentence in italics on page 5 of the paper: "We cannot, however, disentangle whether communities coupled with high-quality schools drive our results, or whether the high-quality schools alone are enough to do the trick."</I>But if you look at pages 21-22, Fryer/Dobbie make it rather clear that they don't see the community programs as important here, and it seems fair for Brooks -- in an op-ed with limited space -- to leave that point to the side.Stuart Buckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05731724396708879386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-54327686338705633172009-05-11T18:02:00.000-04:002009-05-11T18:02:00.000-04:00Interesting. I'd always assumed that "no excuses" ...Interesting. I'd always assumed that "no excuses" referred more to the kids than to the teachers, school, etc.; that no excuses would be accepted from the kids regarding lack of work, effort, and so on. I've always thought that that type of model, even given the difficulty of creating a school environment in which kids are able to step up to that high standard, would potentially be hugely successful. I do believe that kids'll live up to expectations, but only if those expectations are school-wide, consistent, and consistently enforced. It seems that this is what schools like the one Brooks discusses are doing and having a good deal of success with. Of course there are likely other factors, but might this not be a bottom-line cause of success? Expect a lot from kids school-wide, then give 'em the time and the resources to achieve a lot. Not that Brooks is dead-on or anything, and not that there's any such thing as a magic bullet, but isn't it just common sense that this type of school would foster higher student achievement?bradley stonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-10190707239702434022009-05-11T12:04:00.000-04:002009-05-11T12:04:00.000-04:00David Brooks is the poster child for what happens ...David Brooks is the poster child for what happens when low-information columnists write about things they've only seen or experienced from afar. Even "Bobos in Paradise" was shallow and too fond of its own snarky prose to make points effectively, and I'm sure Brooks knows vastly more about the upper middle class suburban dweller than the urban school.<br /><br />Brilliant post, Corey. You covered all the bases in the story convincingly, and added several new angles.Nancy Flanaganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00047575960944913289noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-12461317500756714992009-05-11T11:21:00.000-04:002009-05-11T11:21:00.000-04:00This is a bad habit David Brooks has -- take an in...This is a bad habit David Brooks has -- take an interesting topic, toss out a few interesting ideas, and then hand wave with anecdotes. His piece a week or so ago on "genius" was similarly bad.<br /><br />And my sense is that for all the interesting people he talks to, and places he visits, his hand-waving tends to get him back to his ideological preconceptions.<br /><br />When my mother and I are talking politics or education and start getting fuzzy, we say, as a caveat "I'm just David-Brooksing now..."RDThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08566356038836885187noreply@blogger.com