Comments on Thoughts on Education Policy: Home vs. School Influence

You make some good points above. However, I also t...

2008-06-25T14:33:00.000-05:00

You make some good points above.
However, I also think that this can be helpful to you:
Go to: http://www.panix.com/~pro-ed/

If you get this book and video: PREVENTING Classroom Discipline Problems, [they are in many libraries, so you don't have to buy them] email me and I can refer you to the sections of the book and the video [that demonstrates the effective vs. the ineffective teacher] that can help you.

[I also teach an online course on these issues that may be helpful to you at:
www.ClassroomManagementOnline.com ]

If you cannot get the book or video, email me and I will try to help.
Best regards,

Howard

Howard Seeman, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus,
City Univ. of New York

One more comment: Your point seems to be that low ...

2008-06-20T11:12:00.000-05:00

One more comment: Your point seems to be that low SES kids have problems that need to be addressed by specific educational strategies geared to low SES kids. That is, the the schools with primarily high SES kids are not necessarily going to be places where low SES kids thrive ("No, I would not presume that schools serving primarily high-SES populations schools are any more effective with low-SES kids than low-SES schools.').

Comes back to the points both you and Corey make: Educational interventions are possible with low SES kids, but the path to success is harder and more complex than with the high SES students.

Ken: Thanks for your response to my questions. In...

2008-06-20T11:07:00.000-05:00

Ken: Thanks for your response to my questions. Interesting issues at play...

No, I would not presume that schools serving prima...

2008-06-20T09:06:00.000-05:00

No, I would not presume that schools serving primarily high-SES populations schools are any more effective with low-SES kids than low-SES schools. The data doesn't really support such a conclusion. See here and follow the links.

Is your theory that the low-SES kids who were adopted by high-SES families then "became" high-SES by virtue of adoption?

The adoption served as a massive environmental intervention. The adopted children grew up in a high-SES environment, sometimes from birth (as in the Colorado Adoption Project). No, the adopted children did not become high-SES (because SES has a genetic component), but their environment was changed to high-SES (to a much greater extent than anything that can be accomplished via a governemental intervention, such as Broader Bolder).

My understanding of the adoption studies is that they show that genetics, early childhood, or pre-natal factors had a large effect on children ... so large that it couldn't be overcome by adoption into middle class families.

The studies all has similar outcomes. Some of the studies had adoptions from birth or very shortly thereafter. The level of pre-natal care among the low-SES parents in the US does not cause depressed IQ.

Alternatively, because the adopted children were black or multi-racial, perhaps the study seems to show that the effect of societal prejudice against the adopted children based on their race was a deleterious force in their academic achievement.

Not all the adopted children were black, some were white, and they showed the same biological parent similarities.

Ken: Regarding the adoption studies... If low-SES ...

2008-06-20T07:43:00.000-05:00

Ken: Regarding the adoption studies... If low-SES children were placed with high-SES families by age 7, wouldn't we presume that the low-SES children therefore went on to attend "good" schools? If low-SES children who attended good schools did not improve their achievement levels, I don't understand your argument that poor kids attending good schools will create good academic outcomes.

Is your theory that the low-SES kids who were adopted by high-SES families then "became" high-SES by virtue of adoption?

My understanding of the adoption studies is that they show that genetics, early childhood, or pre-natal factors had a large effect on children ... so large that it couldn't be overcome by adoption into middle class families. Alternatively, because the adopted children were black or multi-racial, perhaps the study seems to show that the effect of societal prejudice against the adopted children based on their race was a deleterious force in their academic achievement.

How do you interpret the adoption studies?

I've provided the links above to the adoption stud...

2008-06-20T07:18:00.000-05:00

I've provided the links above to the adoption studies in which low-ses infants were placed with high-SES families; student achievement did not improve like the ses/achievement correlation supposedly predicts.

Then there's project follow through and 25 years of confirmatory subsequent research showing that by improving the instruction and classroom management in low-SES schools, student achievement can be improved to middle-class levels.

KDeRosa writes:Here's the math for low SES kids.Ca...

2008-06-19T21:53:00.000-05:00

KDeRosa writes:
Here's the math for low SES kids.

Can you point us toward data that backs up this math?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Here's the ...

2008-06-19T21:06:00.000-05:00

Yes, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Here's the math for low SES kids.

poor family + bad school = lower achievement

rich family + bad school = slightly less low achievement

poor family + good school = higher achievement

rich family + good school = slightly higher achievement

Under NCLB eliminating the achievement gap doesn't mean that all children will perform equally. I can explain that too if you want me to.

KDeRosa writes:We have quite a few adopted twin st...

2008-06-19T20:11:00.000-05:00

KDeRosa writes:
We have quite a few adopted twin studies in which a low-SES twin was adopted by a high-SES family. By adolescence student achievement and IQ were not been raised to what the high-ses predicted. Instead, they were at the adoptee's biological parents' SES level and IQ.

So you're arguing that schools should be able to erase achievement deficits of low SES kids, even though adoptive families aren't able to???

Unfortunately, teaching is not a profession. Ther...

2008-06-19T13:58:00.000-05:00

Unfortunately, teaching is not a profession. There is no professional responsibility for bad teaching. Teachers cannot be sued for educational malpractice like other professionals.

The result is that the "teacher's best" does not have to reach the established norms of teaching. In fact, the lack of professional responsibility permits teachers to ignore all the research they don't like, so norms haven't even developed yet. The educational equivalent of bleeding and leaching is still permitted in education.

Corey are are some links:The Minnesota Transracial...

2008-06-19T12:46:00.000-05:00

Corey are are some links:

The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study

The Minnesota Twin Family Study and Brouchard's Reanalysis

The Minnesota Texas Adoption Research Project and Willerman's various papers.

To compare teaching to other professions... Employ...

2008-06-19T11:25:00.000-05:00

To compare teaching to other professions... Employers aren't blamed by society when a worker quits; Doctors aren't blamed by society when not all of their patients are cured; and Generals are not blamed by society when every soldier does not survive an armed conflict.

Teachers, likewise, should not be blamed by society when less than 100% of their students achieve top academic success. Schools must work with the students they are given, and many of the students come with emotional baggage and other problems.

All we can ask of schools is that they try their best, with the resources they are given.

I think that both Corey and Ken have valid points,...

2008-06-19T11:17:00.000-05:00

I think that both Corey and Ken have valid points, although I'm inclined to agree more with Corey since I've had similar teaching experiences to his experiences in the Bronx.

Corey's point is that families and communities have huge impacts on student performance, outside the impact of the school itself. I think this point is basically unassailable: Does anyone believe that parental support, family resources, and commuity values do NOT impact academic performance?

On the other hand, Ken's point is that the right school environment, teaching strategies, and other school characteristics CAN help low-income students increase their academic performance. I find no fault with this assumption, either.

However, Ken's theory does not negate the fact that families have a huge impact on their children's school performance. And it does not negate the fact that schools must work twice as hard to achieve gains for at-risk students, often taking on the role of parent as well as educator.

As some other posters noted, even the best schools and teachers cannot always overcome the problems that students bring with them to school - and they shouldn't be blamed by society when they don't.

This comes from Deborah Meier:I think where we may...

2008-06-19T10:42:00.000-05:00

This comes from Deborah Meier:

I think where we may disagree is the assumption that sneaks through in your stories of "blame". The children of the rich have an equal
share, if not more, careless parents who don't spend a lot of energy on their kids real needs, or have a thoughtful relationship with them. But it has less of an impact on school success. In part they have the advantage of passed on advantages that parents can pay for or which come along with wealth. In part they have the HUGE advantage of taking it for granted that they are entitled, that what they do and think matters, that their wishes could become realities--based on
repeated experience. Finally, their families have networks, etc. But then schools also compound these advantages in many ways, including their failure to take advantage of the strengths that poor kids come
with, and the assumptions we approach their "weaknesses"
with--including their different vocabularies, experiences. styles,
interests. All these also make parents of the poor more leery of
schooling, builds walls between honest and respectful conversation
between home and school, etc - so that kids feel more estranged from
the school's culture. etc etc

We can, in short, do better. It may or may not show up on getting the right answer on multiple-choice tests. It might show up on more well-designed assessment tools. But it cannot (statistically)overcome all the other odds. Having an advantage is an advantage. Why else do we want advantages?

Roger: I would more or less agree with Ken's state...

2008-06-19T10:06:00.000-05:00

Roger: I would more or less agree with Ken's statement that you quoted.

Ken: Can you send along some of these twin studies? I haven't read them.

Some of these are almost certainly not only correl...

2008-06-19T07:53:00.000-05:00

Some of these are almost certainly not only correlated with low achievement in school, but causally related to low achievement.

The research suggests otherwise. We have quite a few adopted twin studies in which a low-SES twin was adopted by a high-SES family. By adolescence student achievement and IQ were not been raised to what the high-ses predicted. Instead, they were at the adoptee's biological parents' SES level and IQ.

There was some small temporary improvement in academic achievement while the children were young, but the adopted kids did not rise to the level of the biological children in the adopted family as the ses correlation would have predicted.

In any event, this was an extreme intevention whose effects cannot be replicated by a governmental program like those suggested by Broader Bolder.

And -- even if the answer is "yes" -- are the other, more cost effective approaches that should be considered in addition to focusing on schooling.

Are there? I believe the research is lacking for this proposition. You should be calling for more research not for imposing yet another untested welfare-esque social program with unknown efficacy.

But I think it bears thinking about whether pre-school programs that actively promoted parental involvement might not be a more cost effective approach than insisting that schools figure out how to make up for the deficits some kids have by the time they start kindergarten.

This ignores a few practical problems. Teaching young pre-school children in groups is very difficult, more difficult than teaching them in K. Promoting parental involvment for parentals who are eitherunwilling or incapable of providing it isn't going to help much.

What is disputed (and which has not yet been estab...

2008-06-19T01:38:00.000-05:00

What is disputed (and which has not yet been established) is the notion that improving the SES of low-SES students will lead to an increase in their achievement.

I think this overstates the position. There are a lot of things that correlate with low-SES (poor healthcare, low levels of parent education, scarity of informal educational opportunities outside of school and in the pre-school years). Some of these are almost certainly not only correlated with low achievement in school, but causally related to low achievement.

The question seems to me to be: can school effectively overcome the deficits that have a variety of causes. And -- even if the answer is "yes" -- are the other, more cost effective approaches that should be considered in addition to focusing on schooling.

My husband has been known to argue that the most effective way to raise student achievement would be to send all the parents to grad school -- joking, obviously. But I think it bears thinking about whether pre-school programs that actively promoted parental involvement might not be a more cost effective approach than insisting that schools figure out how to make up for the deficits some kids have by the time they start kindergarten.

Can Ken and Corey agree on the following?"[Poor] k...

2008-06-18T20:59:00.000-05:00

Can Ken and Corey agree on the following?

"[Poor] kids are different from middle-class kids. They need better instruction and a more structured and carefully managed classroom than middle-class kids. They need compensatory education and they aren't getting it."

By the time they get to middle school, they have had five or six years of inappropriate schooling. This has contributed to their developing a bad attitude toward school and learning, and is a major reason they don't have the skills to succeed in middle school.

Until we are able to have the same luxuries as pri...

2008-06-18T20:41:00.000-05:00

Until we are able to have the same luxuries as private schools and charters school of holding students accountable for their actions, we may not be able to reach (or teach) some of our most difficult students.
ms-teacher

That is perhaps the saddest sentence I have ever read about public schools. Far from being a luxury, "holding students repsonsible" is a requirement for a successful school. If a school can't or won't hold students responsible, it is pretty much guaranteeing that many of them--and their peers who have to put up with them--won't get much of an education.

Unfortunately, "holding students responsible" may mean removing them from regular classes. Most public schools refuse to consider alternative kinds of classes for these kids. Big mistake.

Wow -- a lot of comments. Before I get to any of ...

2008-06-18T18:50:00.000-05:00

Wow -- a lot of comments. Before I get to any of the others, let me address the one that Ken just left.

Whether it's more effective to raise SES or improve schools is an entirely different (though related) subject. If I didn't believe it was possible to raise achievement by improving schools, then I wouldn't be studying ed policy.

Right now I'm talking about which influences current achievement levels more -- home or school.

I don't think I need to point out in this forum th...

2008-06-18T16:43:00.000-05:00

I don't think I need to point out in this forum that correlation does not equal causation.

No one disputes the correlation between SES and student achievement. What is disputed (and which has not yet been established) is the notion that improving the SES of low-SES students will lead to an increase in their achievement.

The small scale controlled research is decidedly mixed and the large scale controlled research is non-existent.

In contrast, there is large scale controlled research at the elementary school level that shows that compensatory education can be provided to low-SES schools and raise their perfromance from the 20th percentile to about the 50th percentile.

Thus, at best, the current evidence says to put into effect the compensatory education that has ben research validated and to provide further research into controlled large-scale studies on improving SES effects and their effect on student achievement.

I so agree with your blog post!! I am not a teach...

2008-06-18T16:42:00.000-05:00

I so agree with your blog post!! I am not a teacher but a parent who wants to see more focus on involving parents and kids into the educational process. Honestly, many parents from all different social economic backgrounds don't know what to do. I believe our educational leaders need to do a better job of preparing kids and parents for that first day of school. Where are the public service announcements that ask: Is your child able to identify the alphabet letters all mixed up? Do they know basic shapes and colors? Can they identify their numbers 0-10 mixed up? Can they identify penny, nickel and dime? We really need a program designed to empower parents and kids into the educational process along with teachers because if a parent isn’t involved at Kindergarten, they won’t be involved at Second, Third and beyond. It’s like the Seat Belt Law: teach a child to wear their seatbelt and they will re-teach big brother, grandma, dad and mom to wear it too. If you teach a child that each night they need to involve their parents into the process of reading with them for 10 minutes, playing a fun activity for 10 minutes and having conversations with lots of open ended questions, it might work. If you teach a child to ask their parents to go through their backpack with them each night and teach them to tell their parent about their day at school and teach them to want to be involved in school, many will pass that along to their parents. To me figuring out how to involve parents and kids into the process is the key!
Smiles - Stacey
www.cedarvalleypublishing.com

"Before I started teaching, I would've thought tha...

2008-06-18T15:21:00.000-05:00

"Before I started teaching, I would've thought that the former Scarsdale school would be better. No longer. In my mind, our school would instantly become superior once it was populated by kids who were well-fed, well-adjusted, well-behaved, and had involved parents. In other words, all the of the structural factors matter less than the population of the school."

I couldn't agree with you more. My personal example: I used to teach in the large San Diego City School district. I worked as a teacher, student teacher, or sub in several high schools and middle schools.

It was a great experiment in the effects of school resources vs. pupil characteristics for the following reason: Almost every school in the district had the same resources: teacher-pupil ratio, building age/quality, supplies, budget. However, huge gaps existed in performance between the wealthier schools and schools with low-income students and high immigrant populations.

I can attest that the SCHOOL factors were basically the same everywhere in the district - the difference was the kids and their families.

There was no question that the schools with the higher income, stable, English-speaking families had higher performing students than the other schools. Aside from the fact that teachers tended to stay longer at the higher-income schools, the only variable which explained this performance difference was the composition of the student population.

Anyone who thinks that all low-income students will do just as well as suburban kids once they attend "high quality" schools should take a look at San Diego City Schools. As you noted, for schools to succeed with at-risk students, the school must act as both school and family for the student, b/c they need so much more.

Besides, the Baker, Goesling, and LeTendre piece f...

2008-06-18T14:54:00.000-05:00

Besides, the Baker, Goesling, and LeTendre piece found even more countries where home matters more than school.

Yeah, I've presented multiple times on the Baker, ...

2008-06-18T14:53:00.000-05:00

Yeah, I've presented multiple times on the Baker, Goesling, and LeTendre's article. They made a valiant effort, but TIMSS just didn't have the depth of information they needed -- take a look at the R squareds in that article vs. the original Heyneman & Loxley article. Gameron & Long (2006) combined the two plus data from Long's dissertation and found that the trend holds up to about $16,000 per capita GDP.