tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post7396054677987796810..comments2024-03-09T03:28:44.216-05:00Comments on Thoughts on Education Policy: Responsibility With No ResponsibilityCorey Bunje Bowerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-90440806475361146702010-09-14T19:13:21.315-04:002010-09-14T19:13:21.315-04:00ADC: While you're correct that teachers don...ADC: While you're correct that teachers don't have influence over a heck of a lot of things I didn't even mention, a number (though certainly not all) of those things can be controlled for when calculating value-added scores. Not that this completely solves the problem, but it at least addresses it to some extent.<br /><br />Parry: Yes, I do think a number of teachers would go for that. I'm not sure if that number is 20% or 60%, and I suspect younger teachers would be more likely to sign up, but it certainly wouldn't be universally turned down.<br /><br />Also, I never claimed that a teacher's success is wholly dependent upon the curriculum they use or the support they receive from their principal, just that these things impact their success -- and that we should take that into account when evaluating teacher effectiveness.Corey Bunje Bowerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09764159604965707919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-23158325941006298192010-09-14T18:29:16.669-04:002010-09-14T18:29:16.669-04:00In the teacher contract example I mention, I would...In the teacher contract example I mention, I would also include increased teacher autonomy and decision-making. In other words, a teacher has (for example) five years to teach what she wants and how she wants, but if student achievement hasn't increased over that time, then she loses her job at the end of the five years.<br /><br />ParryParry Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109638345554364909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-30435663247301405472010-09-14T18:25:21.058-04:002010-09-14T18:25:21.058-04:00But, playing devil's advocate, you still have ...But, playing devil's advocate, you still have wide disparities in teacher effectiveness within the same schools. In other words, in a school with an overbearing superintendent, a micro-managing principal, and a scripted curriculum, different teachers still get disparate results from similar student groups. Some of this is likely random variability, but some of it reflects true differences in teacher effectiveness. Should this not factor into a teacher's evaluation?<br /><br />It seems as though the teacher corollary to the principal example you mention is to give teachers three- to five-year contracts that say "If you show evidence of high student achievement, you get to stay -- if not, you're fired." Do you think teachers would go for that?<br /><br />ParryParry Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01109638345554364909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-2712337813109692922010-09-14T09:20:19.902-04:002010-09-14T09:20:19.902-04:00Corey: Good post. I agree that it is bizarre to h...Corey: Good post. I agree that it is bizarre to hold teachers responsible for their students' progress, but at the same time tie their hands with regard to the methods they can use to achieve said progress. <br /><br />I would go further and posit that teachers have no control over many other factors that influence their teaching effectiveness, such as class size, subject/grade they are assigned to teach, certain aspects of student discipline, retention, parental involvement, student motivation, and a host of other issues. I find it bizarre, for example, that a teacher in his tenth year teaching a subject would be held to the same standard of achievement as a teacher who was just pulled by the principal and assigned a brand new subject two days before the school year began (not an infrequent occurence!). These myriad factors incline me to look skeptically at any evaluation methods that tie teacher performance directly to the test scores or performance of their students.Attorney DCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5458172893016186479.post-2984147692133579422010-09-13T20:10:50.629-04:002010-09-13T20:10:50.629-04:00What you are talking about is what I find so fasci...What you are talking about is what I find so fascinating...the teachers have not been able to find their own voice (it must be completely outside of the union) to state these very issues. Why can they not do this? Why aren't they doing it? They cannot easily be fired? Aren't they suppose to be doing what is best for the student? If they don't find their voice then what?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com