Thoughts on Education Policy

The question isn't whether we should have a system...

2008-07-19T16:47:00.000-05:00

The question isn't whether we should have a system that pays teachers differently because some are better than others. The question is whether we should switch from the present one to something better.

Just about every public school system in America today already has a merit pay plan. Most systems have one pay scale for teachers with a Bachelors, a higher scale for those with a Masters in Teaching, a yet higher scale for those with a Masters plus 30 hours of graduate Education credit, and so on.

It is assumed that the more education courses you have taken, the better teacher you are. Most of my fellow teachers laugh at this idea. But most of them take extra courses anyway. Education courses are highly subsidized and the "payback period" is relatively short.

Most teachers are fairly risk averse and don't want to switch from a system they know to one that they don't. The people who run and/or teach in the ed. schools obviously don't want to lose their present privileged position. Most of the people who run the state ed. departments and staff the legislative ed. committees come from the ed. schools, and aren't likely to rock the boat.

My students are shocked when they learn that their school system makes no attempt to find out how well their teachers are actually teaching. It just seems crazy to them that the powers that be look at nothing but credits and seniority when determining pay. However, few people in the system have an incentive to change things.

Interesting topic. I've always been suspicious of...

2008-07-18T12:16:00.000-05:00

Interesting topic. I've always been suspicious of merit pay myself because I've seen principals evaluate teachers in rather arbitrary ways. As you noted, how would "success" be measured?

One thought: My friend works in a school that implemented a merit pay system recently. She said that, as a result, teachers are less likely to share their lesson plans, etc. with other teachers.

Under the school's system, only a certain, limited number of teachers can receive "merit pay" in a given school year. Therefore, if Teacher X gives Teacher Y some great lesson plans or classroom management tips, Teacher Y's merit pay application gains, while Teacher X now has a reduced chance of garnering one of the limited merit pay slots. Interesting twist...

Something I've never seen discussed is what models...

2008-07-18T01:18:00.000-05:00

Something I've never seen discussed is what models of merit pay are effective in similar contexts to public school teaching.

What models to private schools use? Do they use test scores? Do they use subjective evaluations? How does it affect morale?

Most colleges have something a like peer-evaluation system. What are the lessons from those?

One of my beefs with merit pay advocates is they seem to ignore a whole world of actual practice and potential data, and instead pull out a the simplest Econ 101 "money motivates people" model.

Anecdotally (and I realize there is a difference between anecdote and data) most people I've talked to who work in areas where their boss's evaluation determines their raise tend to feel the whole process is a joke -- either everyone gets the same anyway, or the bosses' judgments seem arbitrary. And managers I've talked to tend to resist pressure to do significant differentiation.

Many academics seem pretty satisfied with the peer-evaluation processes, but it's pretty labor intensive -- and usually focuses on research rather than teaching, in part because that is seen as easier to evaluate.

Similar story with my first (and only) year teachi...

2008-07-16T13:51:00.000-05:00

Similar story with my first (and only) year teaching in the San Diego City School District. I was hired in July to teach 8th grade English. After preparing my classroom, etc. I happened to be chatting w/ the VP on the Thursday before Labor Day. On her wall, I noticed the schedule had me listed as teaching 9th grade world history and geography. Sure enough, she confirmed I had been switched to this new subject(but not informed of the change). I worked over Labor Day weekend to prepare for my new subject, and was able to hit the ground running on Tuesday with the help of some very helpful teachers in the social studies department.

Of course, one month into the school year, the District realized their hiring numbers didn't match the actual student enrollment numbers, due to a mismatch b/w the estimated student enrollment and true enrollment figures calculated in September. As such, the three teachers with least seniority (myself included) were promptly removed from their jobs, and distributed to other schools throughout the county.

Due to the removal of the three teachers, all the 1,700 students' schedules were scrapped and they started all their classes over again in October.

Two years ago, I was given the assignment of teach...

2008-07-16T11:55:00.000-05:00

Two years ago, I was given the assignment of teaching a 3 hour block class of REACH (DI reading program for those far below grade level) along with teaching history for two periods to two separate group of students. A month into the school year, there was a change in schedules and my second group of students for history had their schedule changed. I was given a new group of students, along with a new subject to teach, Earth Science!

Needless to say, I felt like I was rowing upstream with that class all year long.

I like the idea of random testing and I think that...

2008-07-07T15:37:00.000-05:00

I like the idea of random testing and I think that when it comes to all testing, the more random the better.

But early in your post you note a problem with internal validity. Your proposal won't exactly fix that, although it could if the test were designed properly.

The problem noted by Roger in the comments also presents a slightly differnt problem, that of recall versus retention, by which I mean that students can recall what was taught two weeks ago or yesterday, but can't retain what was taught six months ago, let alone last year. What this calls for is the testing regime to not only test what has been recently taught, but to go back in time to test retention of previous material.

But another matter that a random testing regime needs to account for is multiple test format, from mulitple choice to short answer to essay length prompts. There is also the need in some subjects to have students "show their work" i.e. maths and sciences.

Still, randomization will work wonders to avoid the massive test prep regimes that are to a certain extent complained about by parents and teachers.

You wouldn't happen to have an author and title fo...

2008-07-01T16:19:00.000-05:00

You wouldn't happen to have an author and title for that book, would you?

Good point. We read one book during pre-service t...

2008-07-01T12:24:00.000-05:00

Good point. We read one book during pre-service training where the author argued that the best test would be one given a year after students had learned something -- then we'd know what they *actually* learned.

I think this is an excellent idea.One problem I ha...

2008-07-01T11:55:00.000-05:00

I think this is an excellent idea.

One problem I have with testing is that right now all tests are gamed.

The teacher finishes up a unit and tells the kids x, y, and z will be on the test tomorrow. Some of the kids go home and memorize x, y, and z. Others remember some of it because, hey, kids have pretty good short term memories and they've heard, if not really understood, x, y, and z for the last two weeks. So they all get certain grades on the test which are supposed to indicate what they have "learned." But talk to them a month or two later and most of them can't tell x, y, or z from what they had for breakfast.

Hi Corey, Glad to see you're back!I don't see any ...

2008-06-27T20:17:00.000-05:00

Hi Corey,

Glad to see you're back!

I don't see any methodological problems here - the questions were fairly worded, the response rate was very high, and I don't see any reason to believe that teachers who approve of the job he's doing would be likely to disapprove just because the union administered the survey. Even if a small fraction of them did, the numbers are so overwhelming that a majority of teachers would still disapprove of the job he's doing.

Does Teacher Opinion Matter?Yes.Do auto industry l...

2008-06-27T13:13:00.000-05:00

Does Teacher Opinion Matter?

Yes.

Do auto industry line workers' opinions matter (relative to the quality of cars built)? Yes.

Do child care providers' opinions matter (relative to the quality of care)? Yes.

Do nurses' opinions matter?
Do police officers' opinions matter?
Do we want airline pilots feeling good about the work they do, or stepping into the cockpit ticked off about their 27% pay cut?

And on, and on.

Corey,The questions on the UFT survey weren't of t...

2008-06-27T10:06:00.000-05:00

Corey,

The questions on the UFT survey weren't of the form "I think Chancellor Klein is a jerk," or "I don't like Chancellor Klein" -- they were an effort to create some sense of balance regarding accountability metrics for the performance of the NYC system. Sure, it's largely symbolic, but why isn't it relevant that 85% of the responding teachers believe the Chancellor needs to do a better job providing them the support they need as educators, or that 82% want the Chancellor to do a better job focusing on the academic, social and physical development of the whole child? Aren't NYC teachers well-positioned to have informed opinions on how they experience the educational reforms the Chancellor has set in motion?

You make some good points above. However, I also t...

2008-06-25T14:33:00.000-05:00

You make some good points above.
However, I also think that this can be helpful to you:
Go to: http://www.panix.com/~pro-ed/

If you get this book and video: PREVENTING Classroom Discipline Problems, [they are in many libraries, so you don't have to buy them] email me and I can refer you to the sections of the book and the video [that demonstrates the effective vs. the ineffective teacher] that can help you.

[I also teach an online course on these issues that may be helpful to you at:
www.ClassroomManagementOnline.com ]

If you cannot get the book or video, email me and I will try to help.
Best regards,

Howard

Howard Seeman, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus,
City Univ. of New York

One more comment: Your point seems to be that low ...

2008-06-20T11:12:00.000-05:00

One more comment: Your point seems to be that low SES kids have problems that need to be addressed by specific educational strategies geared to low SES kids. That is, the the schools with primarily high SES kids are not necessarily going to be places where low SES kids thrive ("No, I would not presume that schools serving primarily high-SES populations schools are any more effective with low-SES kids than low-SES schools.').

Comes back to the points both you and Corey make: Educational interventions are possible with low SES kids, but the path to success is harder and more complex than with the high SES students.

Ken: Thanks for your response to my questions. In...

2008-06-20T11:07:00.000-05:00

Ken: Thanks for your response to my questions. Interesting issues at play...

No, I would not presume that schools serving prima...

2008-06-20T09:06:00.000-05:00

No, I would not presume that schools serving primarily high-SES populations schools are any more effective with low-SES kids than low-SES schools. The data doesn't really support such a conclusion. See here and follow the links.

Is your theory that the low-SES kids who were adopted by high-SES families then "became" high-SES by virtue of adoption?

The adoption served as a massive environmental intervention. The adopted children grew up in a high-SES environment, sometimes from birth (as in the Colorado Adoption Project). No, the adopted children did not become high-SES (because SES has a genetic component), but their environment was changed to high-SES (to a much greater extent than anything that can be accomplished via a governemental intervention, such as Broader Bolder).

My understanding of the adoption studies is that they show that genetics, early childhood, or pre-natal factors had a large effect on children ... so large that it couldn't be overcome by adoption into middle class families.

The studies all has similar outcomes. Some of the studies had adoptions from birth or very shortly thereafter. The level of pre-natal care among the low-SES parents in the US does not cause depressed IQ.

Alternatively, because the adopted children were black or multi-racial, perhaps the study seems to show that the effect of societal prejudice against the adopted children based on their race was a deleterious force in their academic achievement.

Not all the adopted children were black, some were white, and they showed the same biological parent similarities.

Ken: Regarding the adoption studies... If low-SES ...

2008-06-20T07:43:00.000-05:00

Ken: Regarding the adoption studies... If low-SES children were placed with high-SES families by age 7, wouldn't we presume that the low-SES children therefore went on to attend "good" schools? If low-SES children who attended good schools did not improve their achievement levels, I don't understand your argument that poor kids attending good schools will create good academic outcomes.

Is your theory that the low-SES kids who were adopted by high-SES families then "became" high-SES by virtue of adoption?

My understanding of the adoption studies is that they show that genetics, early childhood, or pre-natal factors had a large effect on children ... so large that it couldn't be overcome by adoption into middle class families. Alternatively, because the adopted children were black or multi-racial, perhaps the study seems to show that the effect of societal prejudice against the adopted children based on their race was a deleterious force in their academic achievement.

How do you interpret the adoption studies?

I've provided the links above to the adoption stud...

2008-06-20T07:18:00.000-05:00

I've provided the links above to the adoption studies in which low-ses infants were placed with high-SES families; student achievement did not improve like the ses/achievement correlation supposedly predicts.

Then there's project follow through and 25 years of confirmatory subsequent research showing that by improving the instruction and classroom management in low-SES schools, student achievement can be improved to middle-class levels.

KDeRosa writes:Here's the math for low SES kids.Ca...

2008-06-19T21:53:00.000-05:00

KDeRosa writes:
Here's the math for low SES kids.

Can you point us toward data that backs up this math?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Here's the ...

2008-06-19T21:06:00.000-05:00

Yes, that's exactly what I'm arguing. Here's the math for low SES kids.

poor family + bad school = lower achievement

rich family + bad school = slightly less low achievement

poor family + good school = higher achievement

rich family + good school = slightly higher achievement

Under NCLB eliminating the achievement gap doesn't mean that all children will perform equally. I can explain that too if you want me to.

KDeRosa writes:We have quite a few adopted twin st...

2008-06-19T20:11:00.000-05:00

KDeRosa writes:
We have quite a few adopted twin studies in which a low-SES twin was adopted by a high-SES family. By adolescence student achievement and IQ were not been raised to what the high-ses predicted. Instead, they were at the adoptee's biological parents' SES level and IQ.

So you're arguing that schools should be able to erase achievement deficits of low SES kids, even though adoptive families aren't able to???

Unfortunately, teaching is not a profession. Ther...

2008-06-19T13:58:00.000-05:00

Unfortunately, teaching is not a profession. There is no professional responsibility for bad teaching. Teachers cannot be sued for educational malpractice like other professionals.

The result is that the "teacher's best" does not have to reach the established norms of teaching. In fact, the lack of professional responsibility permits teachers to ignore all the research they don't like, so norms haven't even developed yet. The educational equivalent of bleeding and leaching is still permitted in education.

Corey are are some links:The Minnesota Transracial...

2008-06-19T12:46:00.000-05:00

Corey are are some links:

The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study

The Minnesota Twin Family Study and Brouchard's Reanalysis

The Minnesota Texas Adoption Research Project and Willerman's various papers.

To compare teaching to other professions... Employ...

2008-06-19T11:25:00.000-05:00

To compare teaching to other professions... Employers aren't blamed by society when a worker quits; Doctors aren't blamed by society when not all of their patients are cured; and Generals are not blamed by society when every soldier does not survive an armed conflict.

Teachers, likewise, should not be blamed by society when less than 100% of their students achieve top academic success. Schools must work with the students they are given, and many of the students come with emotional baggage and other problems.

All we can ask of schools is that they try their best, with the resources they are given.

I think that both Corey and Ken have valid points,...

2008-06-19T11:17:00.000-05:00

I think that both Corey and Ken have valid points, although I'm inclined to agree more with Corey since I've had similar teaching experiences to his experiences in the Bronx.

Corey's point is that families and communities have huge impacts on student performance, outside the impact of the school itself. I think this point is basically unassailable: Does anyone believe that parental support, family resources, and commuity values do NOT impact academic performance?

On the other hand, Ken's point is that the right school environment, teaching strategies, and other school characteristics CAN help low-income students increase their academic performance. I find no fault with this assumption, either.

However, Ken's theory does not negate the fact that families have a huge impact on their children's school performance. And it does not negate the fact that schools must work twice as hard to achieve gains for at-risk students, often taking on the role of parent as well as educator.

As some other posters noted, even the best schools and teachers cannot always overcome the problems that students bring with them to school - and they shouldn't be blamed by society when they don't.